The Reality

...Hey...anyone see where I put my vinyl of Mac the Knife, NY, NY, or When the Saints Go Marching In...?!

Gotcha. What para has said is true in & of itself.

Even Branford is playing old-school trad roots meets post-mod-contempo-borderline fusion-jazz...Tain is not just strictly authentic hardcore jazz, altho he has a VAST repertoire of trad understanding & learning...

To me, the term jazz means BOTH the HC-trad AWA the ever-evolving, improvisatory, spontaneous art form...plain & simple. I actually get BOTH angles. Better to be in BOTH worlds than stuck in one...JMHO

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Ask any metal-head and he'll tell you it's all jazz to him

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hahahaha...or, "Greek" [music]... [img]wink.gif[/img]

It's called Big Band Andy...that's not jazz... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Flam - [in my best Kimosabi/Tonto:] what mean "oopas?!" /;cp Is that form of jazz?!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 04:31 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

Very true matchgrip. I'm talking about jazz. Bill Stewart can play funk as he did for years in James Browns band. You guys do know Bill played with JB. Right?
There are plenty of drummers who play jazz and other styles. but when they play jazz it's rooted.
Flam Triplet, your post made no sense. Are you saying Vinnie doesn't speak the jazz language because of money? I don't get that. We're not talking about money.
And saying what metal drummer thinks is jazz, or what the public thinks is makes no sense either. Jazz is an underground music. That doesn't mean that jazz heads don't know. Groove knows. Para knows. Spangalang in big band if that's all you're doing isn't jazz. It's merely playing jazz time. You guys should get the DVD "The Great Jazz Drummers". There's a ton of footage that can help you understand what jazz drumming is, and why I'm saying that VC doesn't speak it. He doesn't man. U can't give me one example, because they don't exist. He just doesn't play that way. Accept it, and maybe pick up some jazz Cds. I don't know how else to be clearer.

Hey CB. Off the road now with Curtis Salgado and playing again with Lloyd Jones. Picking my teaching schedule back up and just doing everything around town that I can pick up right now. OK, about not playing jazz and not knowing the language. OK, so I play blues and have played all styles of music and even symphony gigs. Then what we are really waying is that because Vinnie does licks from Tony Williams and moved on with stealing stuff from Tony and then under this statement pretty much NONE of Tony Williams records could be considered jazz. I would not see any of tony's later records as being jazz or him restating the same jazz lick that he did with Miles in the 60's. It just seems that only certain people are then able to carry on the torch of that certain jazz language. Tony invented some of that stuff and then took it too another level, but then that is not jazz since he is not going ding ding a ding. BTW......I did have a couple lessons from Elvin years ago and do own jazz records, not just fusion. There is no way for anyone to win this argument since this is the exact same argument that the blues Nazi's have in every city I have played in. If it is not with a harmonica and your old guitar and do not play the same tired OLD tunes over and over with the same fills they used in the 40's while sitting on the back porch while there pet alligator howls along on the bayou....then it is not blues either. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Fuse, thanks it is called Big Band...But isn't it Big Band JAZZ.

Clearly this is a problem of categorical perception. So if you're going ding ding-ah ding in a small group on a "jazz" kit with an upright bass player and it's still not jazz...we need another categorgy of music that...well frankly the name doesn't exist yet. So, maybe we need to create a name like:

sub-jazz
not-so-smooth jazz
this-ain't-real jazz

etc. etc.

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understand what jazz drumming is, and why I'm saying that VC doesn't speak it

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know for sure if Vince "can't speak it," but what you say is generally correct. VC is predom fusion oriented, even while playing his version of the jazz idiom.

I'm sure he listened to some of the trad-roots guys, but he was predom shaped by & concerned with the more post-mod-contempo-fusion cats like Tony & Mouzon, etc...altho he dug Elvin & Jack AW. He also liked Buddy for mod BB, of course.

But still, regardles, IMHO, VC on the BRMSC2 kicks total arse, trad-jazz or not. /;c)

As Triumph the Insult Comic Dog would say, it made me poop on my Roc n Soc, to be exact. Still does. The finale says it all. [I know that wasn't "jazz," either. /;cp

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 04:45 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

Andy - i know, i was just being facetious, kidding aorund with ya, as per this thread's tone, hence my *wank*...er, *wink*... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Geez, I gotta get outta this thread...i just remembered, I [think] i have a life to get [on with]! /;cp

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 04:41 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

True matchgrip that was never the issue. I'm a huge Colaiuta fan. And yes Tony did play alot of the same licks later on on the large drums. But it's not licks that makes you a jazz drummer. One of Elvins most used licks was played by Bonham constantly. Its not about the licks. It's the conversation and the language of the music. U can play Tony licks for days, doesn't mean you know the jazz language. Make fun of it if you must. That my friends is the reality of jazz music. Smooth jazz? Come on...It's no longer called that anyhow. They come up with some other name for it. That's just advertising. Not music. HA!

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And yes Tony did play alot of the same licks later on on the large drums. But it's not licks that makes you a jazz drummer. One of Elvins most used licks was played by Bonham constantly. Its not about the licks. It's the conversation and the language of the music. U can play Tony licks for days, doesn't mean you know the jazz language. Make fun of it if you must

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Huh?

I didn't nor would I never say that...& I'm not really making fun of jazz nor would I ever, as I respect the HECK out've the art form, as does Wynton & bros, awa i listen to as much of it as i can, & try to emulate it the relatively few times i get to play it in a small ensemble; just some's ways of handling it... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I getcha' broeski. No worries. [img]cool.gif[/img] I just kid around with you guys, sometimes...no harm done.

What was i saying a minute ago about getting outta here?!...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 04:52 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

There seem to be a couple of "debates" going on in this thread at once, and it would be useful to separate them from one another.

(1) There seems to be a disagreement regarding the narrowness (or breadth) of the term "jazz".

(2) There seems to be a disagreement about whether Vinnie is competent playing a certain musical style.

Instead of arguing both of these points at once, each should be dealt with separately.

Regarding (1): Obviously this is large theoretical question. The question cannot be dismissed as mere "semantics", as historical (and other) reasons can be marshalled in support of certain uses of the term and against others. This is probably a debate for another thread, where hopefully cooller heads will prevail.

Regarding (2): On even a narrow definition of "jazz", Vinnie is certainly a competent player. Does this mean he is the "master" of the idiom? No, not necessarily. But he can certainly express himself within the traditional jazz idiom in a manner interesting to other musicians and listeners.

However: I am somewhat bemused by some of the Vinnie-fans making statements along the lines "he could play that if he wanted to". What is the point of such a comment? Vinnie is not the Omnipotent Master of the Drums, whose deemed omnipotence (and possibly Divinity) must be restored, for His Believers, with the statement "If Vinnie wanted to he could..." in the face of a challenge to his Omnipotence. I say this because only some quasi-religious commitment to Vinnie's greatness could motivate the statement that Vinnie "could" play in a certain way -- but he just happens to not want to. Vinnie's obviously a great player who inspires all of us; for some of us he is our favorite player. But that doesn't mean that we need to be committed to the view that Vinnie is the undisputed master of all musical styles. Frankly, if I were to give a list of one hundred drummers to listen to in order to learn how to play in the bop/post-bop musical idioms, Vinnie wouldn't be on the list.

I would also like to note a fallacy I often see young drummers commit: they equate "jazz drummer" with "rock/funk drummer with chops". I've seen some manifestations of that attitude on this board (e.g. in the thread describing left-hand comping as "random accents", and elsewhere).

I must be out of the loop here, has FuseU1 become got_a_matchgrip? I'm no jazz scholar but I believe Big Band Jazz existed before "bop" and was considered the "jazz" music of it's time. It was dance music(akin to top 40 or popular music today) but still jazz. The bop scene sprouted out of this style of jazz. Interestingly enough, I imagine that some of the traditional big band drummers back in the day would not consider "bop" as jazz. I think they might not agree if someone told them they were not playing jazz. They enjoyed making the tune swing and playing melodies. There are all sorts of jazz catagories: big band, combo, east coast, west coast(like Shelly Manne), be-bop, hard bop, ECM, etc.... I guess we need to define what it is we are talking about.
Cheers,
CB

Hey Andy V, Good to see you too!